Posts Tagged: UC
UC Master Gardeners of Imperial County grow from Mexican, Latino roots
First program of its kind in area establishes free seed library, community garden
One of the many things that make University of California Cooperative Extension in Imperial County unique is its close proximity to the U.S.-Mexico border. Its geographic location, with a border town called “La Frontera” by locals, infuses the UC Master Gardener Program in this area with intercultural knowledge.
In 2022, UCCE launched its first UC Master Gardener Program in the county and has maintained a cohort of 20 participants since then. Kristian Salgado, the program's first coordinator, said the volunteers offer a range of skills to the gardening community.
“The clientele that our volunteers serve tend to be individuals who have gained their gardening knowledge and experience from tending to plants in their homeland of Mexico,” said Salgado. The volunteer UC Master Gardeners of Imperial County reflect the region's predominantly Latino demographic, making it easier for volunteers to connect with their clientele.
“Nopales, chiles, citrus…residents in this region know how to take care of these plants. They've done it all their life. But when you have a program like the UC Master Gardener Program, you can use science to explain why their practices worked all these years,” said Salgado.
According to Salgado, the UC Master Gardener Program can be perceived as too academic for some residents. “It's not a bad thing, but I had to digest the information myself, even the UC Master Gardeners, and figure out how to deliver it in a way that was relevant to everyone,” she added.
As a starting point, Salgado used English and Spanish materials from neighboring counties like “A Garden of Words/Un jardín de palabras”, developed by the UC Master Gardener Program of Los Angeles County.
One method that helped engage volunteers and residents during classes was the use of culturally significant seeds like chiltepin peppers – seeds that Salgado deems a “must-have” if you are a gardener of Mexican heritage.
“When we focused on plant propagation, the volunteers that I worked with agreed that we should propagate plants that our residents were familiar with and use in their everyday cooking,” Salgado explained.
This same approach was employed at the free seed library and demonstration garden – both established and maintained by the UC Master Gardener volunteers at the City of Imperial Public Library. During the warm season you can find Roselle (Hibiscus sabdariffa L.), known to make agua de jamaica, in the seed library – something you won't easily find in grocery stores. In the demonstration garden during the summer, you'll notice a variety of peppers such as chile güero, jalapeño, serrano and habanero.
As the UC Master Gardener coordinator for Imperial County for the last two years, Salgado has focused her leadership on establishing a program that would generate opportunities for UC Master Gardener volunteers to create projects that are reflective of their interests, align with the program's mission and serve all residents in the county. The demonstration garden, which is the first community garden established in the city of Imperial, is an outcome of Salgado's vision.
UC Master Gardener Program reflects, connects community
Eliza Barajas, UC Master Gardener of Imperial County, who works at the library during the week and has witnessed the impact of the garden, said it gives her a sense of pride. “I moved to the [Imperial] Valley a year ago and I was looking for a way to connect with the community. I couldn't have asked for a better program to do that, and I'm so proud to say that I'm a part of the very first cohort in Imperial County,” Barajas shared.
Salgado praised Barajas for her enthusiasm in the program and noted her excellent ability to speak Spanish. “I love the way Eliza flows from English to Spanish. It's effortless! And it comes in handy when we're doing community events and need to cater to our Spanish and English speakers,” said Salgado.
Since the program came to fruition, Salgado has played a pivotal role in the program's progress. Reflecting on why she accepted the role of UC Master Gardener coordinator for Imperial County, Salgado said that the role was a culmination of everything she studied in school and cares deeply about.
While attending California State Polytechnic University, Humboldt, Salgado earned a master's degree in social science focused on the environment and community. She studied the intersections of food insecurity, the agricultural industry and health inequities, and how they specifically impact the Latino community.
Growing up and currently living in Calexico, Salgado questions why her community is food insecure. “Imperial is the ‘salad bowl' of the nation. We export a variety of fresh fruit and veggies all year long. How is it that our community doesn't have enough access to the healthy food it produces?” she asked.
Food security is one concern that Salgado envisions the UC Master Gardener Program addressing through its seed library, community garden and gardening classes.
Following graduate school, Salgado moved back home and joined former classmate and UCCE colleague, Chris Wong, in establishing the first farmer's market in Calexico in 2013. Wong encouraged Salgado to apply her new knowledge and skills at UCCE Imperial County, where she began working as a climate-smart agriculture community education specialist in 2019, supporting growers with grant writing.
“I realized early on that there was a lot of divestment in the community, and I didn't understand why,” she said, adding that she's still working to understand. Salgado's mother-in-law also continuously challenged her to think bigger. “My mom-in-law comes from the Chicano Movement. She's guided me into thinking more critically about the issues we face in our community and as Latinos.”
In September, Salgado began in a new role as the regional operations specialist for the UC Master Gardener Program statewide office, covering the Bay Area to Southern California regions. Salgado hopes to develop useful tools and resources to support coordinators' professional development, while integrating programmatic best practices centered on diversity, equity, inclusion and justice.
“The UC Master Gardeners are full of knowledge, and my education was motivated by identifying how Latinos can get a seat at the table. UC Master Gardeners easily become trusted sources in the community, and for Imperial County, this is how they get a seat at the table,” said Salgado.
UC ANR publishes first-ever manual on olive production for oil
Growers, UC Cooperative Extension researchers offer guidance on producing high-quality olives
Facing a deluge of lower-price products from Europe, the California olive oil industry is doubling down on its clear-cut competitive edge: the consistent and bona fide quality of its oil.
“Olive Production Manual for Oil,” a new book published by University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources, aims to help California olive growers maximize that advantage.
“It's a tough market to compete in, but I think the way to win for California is to compete on quality,” said book co-editor Selina Wang, a UC Cooperative Extension specialist in the UC Davis Department of Food Science and Technology. “The quality of California olive oil is unmatched, but you can't make good quality olive oil with bad fruit, so the goal is to get more fruit from the trees – and for the fruits to be high-quality fruit.”
The 273-page manual, available for purchase online, is the first of its kind in the U.S. While some parts of the book are specific to California (which grows nearly all of the olives for domestically produced olive oil), most of the material would be useful to producers in other states, Wang noted.
“Through our conversations with growers, it became clear to us that a manual like this – not a scientific publication but a manual that is easy to follow, written in language that is accessible, and with pictures and illustrations – would be really helpful to the growers,” she said.
Growth of California olive oil industry necessitated creation of manual
Aside from a book focused predominantly on table olives and another on organic olive production (by UCCE farm advisor emeritus Paul Vossen), there was no one-stop, comprehensive resource on the bookshelf for oil olive growers. The need for such a manual had become more acute as oil olives replaced table olives in California orchards during the last 20 years.
Whereas harvesting by hand was historically cost-prohibitive, the introduction of super-high-density planting systems in 1999 made oil olive production more economically feasible. Mechanical pruning and harvesting of new cultivars (Arbequina, Arbosana and Koroneiki) – specifically bred for these densely planted orchards – led to the rapid expansion of oil olives in the state. According to a U.S. Department of Agriculture report, California olive oil production jumped from 2 million pounds in 2006 to an average of 21 million pounds in 2021–23.
With about 37,000 acres of oil olives planted across California, the Olive Oil Commission of California saw the need to support the production of this manual. Championed by Dan Flynn, founder and executive director emeritus of the UC Davis Olive Center, Wang and co-editor Louise Ferguson outlined the contents of the book. They then sought out a mix of growers and industry professionals and UCCE advisors and specialists to write its chapters.
“Most of the information is data-based, from people who are working with the olives,” said Ferguson, a UC Cooperative Extension pomologist at UC Davis. “This is the first data-based olive oil production manual we've had.”
Manual infused with firsthand insights, practical recommendations
Hard-earned experience taught growers a valuable lesson that is conveyed in the book – the need to hand-prune. While mechanical pruning helps control the size of the trees, some hand-pruning is still required to allow light to filter to the leaves. Failing to do so leads to a dramatic decrease in yield.
“That happened in many of the orchards that were inexperienced in these new cultivars and new super-high-density planting systems,” Ferguson said.
She added that other key topics in the manual include irrigation management in a water-constrained state, nitrogen management, harvest timing and orchard site selection. Choosing a good spot for planting is crucial in this era of extreme climate volatility, Ferguson noted, as olive trees are significantly affected by temperature shocks in spring (fruit set) and fall (harvest).
For Wang, another overarching theme in the manual is the importance of testing. Testing the soil, water and leaves provides critical data that growers can use to adjust their inputs and production practices for optimal profitability.
“You may spend a couple hundred dollars on the lab work, but it will pay off, for sure – you're going to increase the health and productivity of your trees,” Wang explained. “Oil olive growers are paid based on the oil content in their fruit; you not only want to have a lot of fruit on the trees, you want to make sure that your fruit are accumulating oil.”
California oil olive growers, practices continue to evolve
Wang and Ferguson hope their book will help California producers compete more effectively in the global marketplace. Currently, about 90% of the olive oil consumed in the U.S. is imported from Mediterranean countries, due primarily to the lower price point. In that region, producers tend to harvest riper olives that produce oil at a greater volume but lesser quality.
In contrast, California growers harvest earlier and produce oil that is higher quality (with more flavor and more antioxidants) and far exceeds accepted standards for “extra virgin olive oil.”
According to Wang, California olive oil mills have nearly maximized their efficiency, and the growth opportunity for the industry is in the orchards: to optimize practices to produce more fruit, and to plant more trees. Wang said the new manual can help on both fronts.
“Just like for other crops, focusing on quality – while increasing efficiency and productivity, and therefore profitability – is the name of the game,” she said.
Ferguson also stressed that knowledge continues to evolve and urged growers to reach out to the editors and chapter authors with their experiences.
“Most of the authors are in California and they're working,” she said. “So if you start to notice things that are different, or you want more information or something is not clear, the authors are available.”
The manual can be purchased at https://anrcatalog.ucanr.edu/Details.aspx?itemNo=3559.
/h3>/h3>/h3>/h3>Diagnosing herbicide problems takes detective work
Field day offers examples, tips for solving the mystery
A grower applies an herbicide to his tomato plants, or thinks a neighbor's treatment is drifting over her almond trees. A short time later, the leaves start to bleach or shrivel. Was it the herbicide? Or maybe water stress? Soil nutrients? Perhaps an insect?
Figuring out the causes of crop problems takes detective work, and like solving any mystery, it starts with knowing the signs, gathering evidence and asking questions.
The Diagnosing Herbicide Symptoms field day at UC Davis was an opportunity to see, up close, the shriveled cotton, scorched corn and dying sunflowers that can result when herbicides are applied incorrectly. Using the right herbicide – in the right proportion, at the right time and in the right field – can make the difference between a thriving crop and a financial loss.
A top take-away to avoid problems: “Don't do stuff at night!” laughed Becky Wheeler-Dykes, a UC Cooperative Extension farm advisor attending the June 26 event to better serve growers in Glenn, Tehama and Colusa counties. “The packages look the same. People grab the wrong jug.” And then, disaster.
Instructors were Brad Hanson, professor of Cooperative Extension; and Kassim Al-Khatib, the Melvin D. Androus endowed professor for weed science; both in the Department of Plant Sciences. They were joined by John Roncoroni, a Cooperative Extension emeritus farm advisor rooted in the department's weed science program. Attendees were a mixture of people from agriculture, industry, government officials, university researchers and Cooperative Extension advisors. The event was hosted by the Weed Research and Information Center, based in the Department of Plant Sciences.
Out in a field west of campus, visitors could see the progression of damage, from control plots with green and healthy crops to plants that looked sadder as herbicide concentrations increased. Visitors could see the patterns of damage for common foliar chemicals such as glyphosate, paraquat, and 2,4-D, as well as soil-applied herbicides from several chemical classes.
“There's a lot of detective work,” said Stephen Chang, a master's student in Hanson's lab aiming for a career in Cooperative Extension. “For example, the company that makes the herbicide says there shouldn't be a problem, but the grower says, there is a problem. This course helps with developing the skills to figure out what happened.”
It might not be the herbicide at all
Detective work and problem-solving frame the approach, Hanson explained. The cause of crop damage can be simple or complex. Like a good mystery, what appears to be a clue can turn out to be a red herring. Professionals need to draw on their inner Sherlock Holmes to observe and document symptoms, look for patterns in the plants and in the field, ask questions, gather information about the larger environment and collect samples.
An herbicidal Agatha Christie would then suggest: What if it's not herbicide damage at all? Participants learned to consider the possibility of insects, pathogens and viruses, as well as problems with water, nutrients, soil condition and even root damage from cultivation practices.
Hanson recalled puzzling over symptoms he found in an orchard. The culprit? “A leaking natural gas line,” he said.
More resources for herbicide issues
Participants also heard from Molly Mathews, deputy agriculture commissioner from Yolo County, on how a field investigation is conducted. Lawyer Robert Davies, of Donahue Davies LLP in Folsom, outlined the basics of what happens when there are lawsuits related to crop damage from herbicide drift.
The Diagnosing Herbicide Symptoms field day is part of a larger program of education and outreach offered through the Weed RIC, said director Julia Stover-Blackburn. It was the first time the event has been offered since the COVID-19 pandemic, she added.
- For more information about field days and resources, visit the Weed RIC webpage.
- For a thorough discussion of herbicide symptoms, visit this page overseen by Al-Khatib and sponsored by University of California Agriculture and Natural Resources.
- This online course follows an earlier version of the Diagnosing Herbicide Symptoms field program.
This story was originally published on the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences website.
/h3>/h3>/h3>Postharvest Center: New research focus and outreach
Still providing the world with top-notch information
UC Davis has been a leading source of information for people handling, packaging and transporting crops since the beginnings of the Postharvest Research and Extension Center in 1979. Now, the center is strengthening its focus on the needs of industry, offering fresh courses, weaving strategic partnerships and expanding into digital media, all while building up its research capacity to better serve the needs of the produce industry.
“We're asking people in the industry, ‘How can we support you? How can we better listen to you?' We want people to know we're not disconnected know-it-alls,” said new center co-director Bárbara Blanco-Ulate, an associate professor in the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences. “We're getting more faculty involvement, people with expertise in related fields such as quality engineering and safety, as well as bringing in emeriti faculty and people from around California. We're forming partnerships with organizations around the world, and we've opened up to people from other institutions around the country.”
“The larger the network, the more things we can do,” added fellow co-director Irwin R. Donis-Gonzalez, an associate professor of UC Cooperative Extension in the Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering.
The foundation: Expanded research
The new co-directors will beef up the center's applied science component with the hiring of a research specialist. They aim to provide new information that can be used industry-wide as companies explore new ways to handle and store fresh produce.
“We're building the capacity to respond to industry requests for research,” Blanco-Ulate said.
New courses, national reach
Their first workshop, held recently, demonstrates the center's renewed vision and commitment to broad networking: The Agricultural Water Systems Workshop addressed current concerns around water management and risks to food safety. Partners in the course included the Western Growers Association, the University of Arizona, the University of Florida and Salinas-based Taylor Fresh Foods, Inc.
Courses given over the past several years that have been recorded will be posted to the center's new, online video library and to the center's YouTube channel.
“People can watch those courses for free,” Blanco-Ulate said. In addition, new courses will be offered in-person and hybrid.
The co-directors are working with the University of California to offer continuing and professional education credits to course participants.
Online resources – many for free!
The center's website features a database with scores of free product fact sheets, which are downloaded by users around the world. The fact sheets are so highly regarded that they are considered expert evidence in legal proceedings, Blanco-Ulate said. Visitors to the website can also find links to research papers published by UC Davis faculty, including seminal works by Adel Kader, who founded the center.
Books are offered through the center's online bookstore and include titles through UC Agriculture and Natural Resources. Ten new titles are being planned, including topic-specific updates taken from previous classics.
Debunking myths: Ethylene
A new newsletter deals with a new problem: Misinformation about food and food handling that spreads through social media. One example is the use of ethylene to ripen produce such as bananas, so that they can be safely stored until ready for the consumer.
“Ethylene is safe for humans and does not leave any harmful residue on produce,” Donis-Gonzalez wrote in the center's latest newsletter. Even better news, he added: The levels of ethylene used on food are a tiny fraction of the concentrations that would be needed to create an explosion, one of the false alarms being raised in social media.
Evolving with the times
After 47 years of service, these and more updates will keep the center at the forefront of an evolving postharvest world. The top goal: Meet the needs of agriculturalists, industry and consumers.
“We are adapting to new needs, with both the resources and the workshop we're offering,” Donis-Gonzalez said.
“As a land-grant institution, we take our outreach mission seriously,” Blanco-Ulate added.
Related links
More about the UC Davis Postharvest Research and Extension Center.
This story first appeared on the UC Davis Department of Plant Sciences site.
/h3>/h3>/h3>/h3>/h3>/h3>/h3>Green Hall of Famer Oki retires after 29-year UC career
UCCE specialist's research prevents water pollution, reduces water use
When interviewed to become a University of California Cooperative Extension specialist in environmental horticulture, Lorence “Loren” Oki was asked what kind of research he wanted to conduct.
In response, he showed the hiring committee a photo of a residential gutter. “Water is a big concern, and I found very little research on runoff from homes,” said Oki, explaining that studying residential runoff is what “started his career” with UC Agriculture and Natural Resources back in 2002.
Although he remains active supporting growers and advising industry leaders, Oki retired from UC ANR in July 2023. Before joining ANR, Oki worked as a researcher for UC Davis' Department of Environmental Horticulture studying greenhouse irrigation in 1994, bringing his total time with the University of California to 29 years.
Oki, professor emeritus of Cooperative Extension at UC Davis, led many research projects that advanced the green industry which includes landscapes, nurseries and floriculture.
“Loren is the epitome of a specialist,” said Darren Haver, UC ANR's Research and Extension Center system director, who has worked with Oki for more than 20 years on projects that have significantly improved urban water quality and water conservation efforts across California.
Research influences pesticide management statewide
With a $3 million grant funding a statewide study, Oki and Haver set out to characterize runoff from residential sources over a five-year period. They determined the volume of irrigation runoff from residential land use, as well as the pollutants in the runoff.
Oki and Haver, co-principal investigators, along with researchers from UC Davis and UC Riverside, discovered that the degradation products of the insecticide fipronil – commonly found in runoff water – were more toxic than its parent compound. The study led to an investigation of human pathogens and pathogen indicators in residential runoff, the first of its kind.
Another contribution was the early detection of a new pesticide used for ant control, enabling strategies to be put in place to prevent it from reaching local streams and creeks. Oki and Haver's work also persuaded the California Department of Pesticide Regulation to change pesticide labels to minimize the chances of pesticides moving off target during irrigation and rain events.
These changes included preventing pesticide application before predicted rain and preventing irrigation after applications, keeping pesticides from impervious surfaces, and restricting applications on lawns and landscape beds within two feet of impervious surfaces and others.
Plant trials expand beyond California
Oki was also the principal investigator of the Climate-Ready Landscape Plants project, which may be the largest irrigation trial in the western U.S., and the UC Plant Landscape Irrigation Trials, the California component of that project. The UCPLIT trials originated in 2004 at UC Davis as a research project by Karrie Reid, retired UCCE environmental horticulture advisor for San Joaquin County, while she was pursuing her master's degree. In 2017, the irrigation trials were duplicated at the South Coast Research and Extension Center.
These projects evaluate landscape plants under varying irrigation levels to determine their optimal performance in regions requiring supplemental summer water. Throughout the trial, Oki identified many landscape plants, including rose cultivars, that remain aesthetically pleasing with little water.
Today, the trials have expanded beyond California as the Climate-Ready Landscape Plants Project at Oregon State University, University of Washington, University of Arizona and Utah State University.
Growing up in the nursery industry
In 2017, Oki obtained tenure, allowing him to expand his professional responsibilities to include production horticulture, specifically greenhouses and nurseries, an industry he was extremely familiar with. “I come from a nursery family,” Oki explained. “My grandfather started Oki Nursery in the early 1900s.”
During World War II, Oki's family was incarcerated in the Poston Relocation Center in Arizona and lost their homes and property. When they were released, they returned to the nursery industry to rebuild their lives. “After World War II, my father and uncle got more involved with my grandfather's work,” he said.
The Oki family played an instrumental role in technological development for nurseries in general. Oki Nursery, which was located in Sacramento, worked closely with IBM and was the first to use a computerized system in the industry.
Oki developed computerized scheduling for the bedding plants, poinsettias, chrysanthemums, bulbs and other crops. He developed a method to calculate the cost of any crop grown by the nursery at any point in the crop cycle and computerized greenhouse environmental and irrigation controls. This may not sound impressive now, but that was in the 1980s.
“My father was known for being progressive and he also knew everyone at UC Davis,” said Oki. “He wanted to work with anyone who had an interest in doing something good for nurseries.”
Inducted into Green Industry Hall of Fame
In the 1950s, Oki Nursery partnered with researchers from UC Davis' agricultural engineering program and developed the overhead sprinklers commonly used in nurseries today. Until the 1980s, Oki Nursery was the largest nursery in Northern California. Before it shut down in 1993, Oki worked in the family business as a greenhouse manager when runoff became a growing concern.
“I remember getting served with a notice by the Regional Water Quality Control Board stating that we needed to prevent runoff because it was polluted with nitrate fertilizer, which was common in the nursery industry,” Oki said.
One of those efforts focused on using controlled-release fertilizer instead of applying fertilizer via irrigation as a liquid feed. “What we learned is that if we converted nurseries to controlled-release fertilizer, we could reduce the nitrate runoff,” he said. While a member of the Oki Lab, Bruno Pitton earned his Ph.D. studying nursery hydrology and the fate of nitrogen fertilizers in container crop production adding to the information on runoff and nitrate management. Pitton is now the environmental horticulture advisor for Placer and Nevada counties.
In 2023, Oki was inducted into the Green Industry Hall of Fame, which recognizes individuals with a minimum of 20 years in the landscape, nursery or floriculture industry and who have made significant contributions to the field.
Having grown up in the industry, Oki said that his father taught him to never be afraid to try new things. “If you think you have an idea that might work, do the best you can to make it work. If it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out. And that's OK,” he said.
Revitalizing space for greater impact
This mentality encouraged Oki whenever tackling new tasks, like rebranding the California Ornamental Research Federation, a space for education and collaboration, as UC Nursery and Floriculture Alliance.
In 2009, Oki and David Fujino, executive director of the California Center for Urban Horticulture, became co-directors of CORF, which catered to the cut flower industry. At that time, Oki and Fujino realized that nurseries generated much greater revenue in the state than cut flowers.
“It was a strategic decision to change CORF to UCNFA, which included floriculture and nurseries in the name,” Fujino said. Combined, nurseries and floriculture have consistently placed in the top five agricultural commodities in the state.
When reflecting on their partnership, Fujino said that working with Oki was a “natural fit.” “I couldn't have asked for a better partner, a better colleague and, ultimately, a better friend to have my back and work side by side,” he added.
Since UCNFA's launch, the two have worked to maintain the group's impact by hosting “Ask your Advisor” webinars to connect advisors to growers, as well as co-hosting large-scale events such as the annual conference for the International Plant Propagators' Society — an organization focused on greenhouse and nursery production education — for the Western Region, which Oki's father helped establish in the 1960s.
Encouraging a return to education
Gerry Spinelli, UC Cooperative Extension production horticulture advisor for San Diego County and member of UCNFA's administrative committee, described those who have learned from Oki as his sons and daughters. “When I meet someone that's learned from Loren or worked with him, that person instantly becomes my friend. That's the kind of effect Loren has on us,” Spinelli said.
Grant Johnson, UC Cooperative Extension urban agricultural technology advisor for Los Angeles and Orange counties, credits Oki for his master's degree in horticulture from UC Davis.
“Loren gave me a lot of direction as far as career choices and research interests. He instilled in me a dedication to life-long learning, just like he continues to do,” said Johnson. Before Oki became his professor, Johnson worked with Oki as a staff research associate at the South Coast Research and Extension Center in Irvine.
Another influential person in Oki's life is John Kabashima, emeritus environmental horticulture advisor for UCCE Orange and Los Angeles counties and fellow Green Hall of Fame inductee. Like Oki, Kabashima grew up in the nursery industry.
Oki, who earned a bachelor's degree in ornamental horticulture from Cal Poly San Luis Obispo and a master's degree in plant science from UC Riverside, decided to pursue a Ph.D. in ecology at UC Davis with Kabashima's encouragement.
While Oki was still working in his family's business, Kabashima said that Oki relied on UC ANR researchers for scientific information and felt like Oki wanted to be one of them. “I told him that he's a good nursery guy, but he's a better scientist,” said Kabashima. “His heart is in science.”
The two began working together as soon as Oki became a graduate student and have been colleagues and friends for nearly 40 years. “My favorite response from Loren whenever people ask him a question is, ‘It depends,'” Kabashima said. “It always leads to people opening up and giving more context. That's what Loren does, he gets you to think.”
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